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mike mealy's avatar

And the child asks, simply: Why?

And the "parent" responds: Because I said so.

peter keogh's avatar

Martin is raising a **serious but narrowly defined legal question**:

* He asks how **jurisdiction is attributed in an individual case** under the Single Justice Procedure (SJP).

* Specifically:

> Does authority arise from the abstract statutory system, or from identifiable, traceable acts in the individual case?

He argues:

* Modern systems rely on **procedural abstraction** (high-volume processing).

* But **authority must still be identifiable and verifiable in the individual case**.

* Without that:

* the tribunal is hard to identify,

* the decision is hard to challenge,

* and legal certainty is weakened.

He attempted multiple routes (JR, Case Stated, s142, Part 8), but:

* none answered the question,

* and the Part 8 claim was **struck out without reasons**, on the basis:

> “no jurisdiction in the civil courts.”

He interprets this as:

* a refusal to engage with the underlying issue,

* possibly exposing a systemic discomfort with the question.

---

# 🧠 Key Clarification (Your Framework Applied)

The issue is **not whether the question is valid** — it is.

The issue is:

> **Where, and in what legal form, that question can be determined**

This is where **public vs private law and jurisdiction boundaries** become critical.

---

Martin,

What you’ve identified is a real issue — but what the court has just said needs to be read very carefully, because it’s doing something structural rather than substantive.

The strike-out line — *“no jurisdiction in the civil courts”* — is not, in my view, a rejection of the question you’ve asked. It is a boundary statement about **forum and legal classification**, not about the validity of the issue itself.

You are asking a question about **how criminal jurisdiction is constituted and attributed in an individual case under statute**. That sits within the **criminal law domain**, even though it has public law characteristics.

The civil courts — including Part 8 — generally deal with:

* private law disputes (contract, property, etc.), and

* certain public law matters (via judicial review or statutory routes),

but they do not act as a **general forum for abstract determination of criminal jurisdictional architecture**.

So the court is effectively saying:

> “This is not a question we can determine here, in this procedural form.”

That creates the tension you’ve run into:

* You cannot ask it abstractly (civil Part 8)

* But the available criminal routes tend to deal with **decisions**, not **underlying attribution mechanisms**

That’s not a contradiction — it’s a **containment feature of the system**.

---

## Public vs Private Law — and Why It Matters Here

The distinction is crucial:

### Private Law

* Concerns rights and obligations between parties

* Determined in civil courts

* Example: contract, debt, property

### Public Law

* Concerns **exercise of state power**

* Includes:

* judicial decision-making

* criminal jurisdiction

* procedural legality

* Reviewed through:

* criminal procedure routes

* judicial review (in limited ways)

Your question sits here:

> **How does the state lawfully constitute and exercise judicial authority in an individual criminal case?**

That is a **public law question embedded inside criminal procedure**, not a free-standing civil issue.

---

## The Real Boundary the Court Is Enforcing

The system allows:

✅ Case-specific challenges:

* “Which court decided my case?”

* “What evidence of judicial determination exists here?”

❌ Abstract structural questions:

* “What is the general mechanism of jurisdiction under SJP?”

At least, it does not allow them **via civil declaratory routes**.

---

## Where Your Insight Is Strong

You are right about this:

> Authority must be capable of identification and verification in the individual case.

That principle holds.

---

## Where the Approach Hits Resistance

The difficulty is not the question — it is the **level of abstraction** and **forum chosen**.

Courts will resist:

> being asked to define the system in the abstract

but must engage with:

> whether authority can be identified and evidenced in a specific case

---

## The Practical Pivot

The question may need to be reframed from:

> “How does jurisdiction arise under SJP?”

to:

> “In this case, what is the identifiable legal mechanism by which the court exercised jurisdiction, and where is it recorded?”

That keeps the issue:

* concrete

* justiciable

* within the court’s accepted remit

---

## Bottom Line

The strike-out is not a denial of the issue.

It is a signal that:

> **the question must be asked inside the system, not about the system in the abstract**

And that distinction — between **public law principle** and **procedural forum** — is where the real boundary lies.

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